evidence are we talking about to substantiate these claims? >> fred, they're going to bring in some of his closest friends who are going to testify as government witnesses and try to tag him. it's a 38-count federal indictment alleging ricoh, tax evasion, failure to provide services. they threw the kitchen sink at him. he's already down four months, then 14 months in prison. and now he's looking at substantial prison time, fred, 24, 40, 50-year prison sentence if he gets convicted. and just because you have a jury of your peers, it doesn't guarantee you an acquittal. this is going to be a very difficult case for him to defend. and, again, the government is throwing everything at him on this one. >> so, avery, people are thinking, kwame kilpatrick, facing charges, they're remembering the case involved with the text messaging, of the affair that he had. this has nothing to do with that. >> obstruction. >> something very different.